18TH JANUARY 1907
THE ASSOCIATED SOCIETY
THE EIGHT HOUR DAY QUESTION
A NATIONAL PROGRAMME
At the Central Hotel, Leeds, on the 8th inst., an important movement affecting the future working conditions of locomotivemen, including those on the electric lines employed by the railways of Great Britain, was inaugurated. A conference of the delegates of the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen was held, there being present about 100 delegates reprinting 15,000 locomotive enginemen and firemen.
The chief business was the initiation of a national programme to form the subject of negotiations between the men and the directors of the various railway companies. Mr. G. Moore, of Bolton, presided, and was supported by Mr. A. fox (the general secretary) and others.
Several resolutions were adopted, the proceedings being of a harmonious and businesslike character.
It was resolved in the first place to press for an eight hour day, and a guaranteed week; and that no man should sign on for less than a day's pay, each day's work to be treated separately.
It was further resolved that the time should be counted from signing on to signing off at the locomotive stations.
With regard to the guaranteed week it was decided that it should be exclusive of Sunday and all time between Saturday midnight and Sunday midnight, to be paid for as time and a half.
A mileage clause was among the items adopted with the restriction no man should be allowed to run more than 250 miles in one day.
With respect to wages, the most important changes proposed to be asked for were for the cleaners and firemen.
For driver, the wages laid down at the conference were for the first year 6s. per day, second year 6s. 6d., third and forth years 7s., fifth year 7s, 6d., and sixth year and afterwards 8s. per day.
The wages of the firemen were to be, for the first year 4s. per day, second year 4s. 6d., third, fourth and fifth years 5s. sixth year and afterwards 5s. 6d., men living in London to receive 5s. a week in addition.
Cleaners were to be paid during the first year 15s. a week of 48 hours, rising 1s. per week per year.
In the course of the afternoon Mr. A. Fox, the general secretary of the society, was instructed to send the following telegram to Mr. R. Bell, M.P., the general secretary of the A.S.R.S.:-
"The delegates assembled request co-operation of your loco. members to assist in furthering the programme drawn up today. Particulars by letter, but may say eight hours' day, guaranteed day and week, each day to stand by itself, time and a half Sunday, are adopted. Reply, Fox."
During the sitting votes of sympathy were passed to relatives of the men killed in the recent accidents at Salisbury, Grantham, and Arbroath, and strongly worded protest was adopted against the long hours enginemen were allowed, by some companies, to remain on their engines.
A telegram of sympathy was also sent to Driver Gourlay who was in the Arbroath disaster.
A resolution was adopted appreciative of the work done by the Labour Party in the House of Commons under the leadership of Mr. Keir Hardie in connection with the Trade Disputes Bill, and also calling upon the Labour members to move the Board of Trade to appoint locomotivemen as inspectors, and urging that such inspectors should make experiments with automatic brakes on travelling trains.
This ended the proceedings
8TH FEBRUARY 1907
THREE BRIDGES
Extracted from branch report
The ordinary meeting was held on Sunday, with a good attendance. Two new members. Bro. W. Parsons was elected a collector for the Orphan Fund in place of Bro. Mills, who has been collector for the past ten years, during which time he has collected over £100 for the orphans. A vote of thanks was accorded him for his past services, and it was proposed that recognition would be made for his past services. As he has been laid up several weeks it was thought that a money present would be of most service to him, and he was voted £1.
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BOARD OF TRADE INQUIRY AT SEAFORD
An inquiry was conducted by Armytage on the 31st ult. Mr. J.H. Dobson attended on behalf of the driver and fireman, a report of which will be appear in due course.
22ND FEBRUARY 1907
We have previously given details of the programme adopted at Leeds by the Associated Society, which programme has now been forwarded to the companies by that society. It was accompanied by a letter we reproduce from the columns of the Railway Renews, to whom it has evidently been forwarded:-
Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen
Head Offices: 8, Park Square, Leeds,
5th February. 1907
Dear Sir, A conference of delegates from the various railway companies engine drivers, firemen, and motormen, was held in Leeds on the 8th and 9th January last, for the purpose of considering what should be asked from the companies s reasonable conditions of pay and hours for locomotive and motormen.
It was decided that as the work is practically alike on all companies that pay ought to be alike.
In considering the matter, no desire was evinced to in any way take undue advantage of the companies, and hence, in drawing up the conditions, a programme was put together which is composed of one or more conditions actually now enjoyed by one or other of the various companies' men.
I was instructed to forward the programme to each engineer and general manager and board of directors. In doing so I ask you ti bear with me whilst I point out some justification.
1st. The economic conditions introduced by the companies have indeed fallen on the locomotive men.
2nd. Larger engines and loads mean certainly increased receipts, and, therefore, the men are only asking after the companies have reached.
3rd. We claim that the full responsibility of the safe working rests upon the drivers and firemen and motormen.
4th. The splendid results that the men have responded to their duty.
5th. We believe that requests of the men can be met very largely without serious costs to the companies.
6th. We shall be extremely obliged if you will give the request your careful consideration, and to know you will be prepared to meet a deputation of you drivers, firemen, and motormen to discuss the same, and that you will allow me to accompany them.
Trusting for a favourable reply,
Yours faithfully
A. Fox, General Secretary
P.S. Please note Mr. R. Bell is not authorised to negotiate for us -- A. Fox.
The object of this letter is apparent, and the Railway News makes no secret of its pleasure in being able to reproduce it. It is quoted as conclusive proof that Mr. Bell does not speak for the men on the railways, and it is denied that he represents more than a mere tithe of them. it should not be forgotten that nominally the Associated Society is federated with the A.S.R.S., and that it was invited to take part in the the national movement, which invitation it declined, substituting a request that the A.S.R.S. would allow its loco. men only to co-operate with that society. It is a little difficult to understand the object of the footnote, which, as the Railway News truly says, is often the most significant part of any letter. We doubt if Mr, Fox had any authority for making the statement contained therein, but whether that is so or not it was very uncalled for and can only have one result, which we leave to the imagination of the reader.
1ST MARCH 1907
BRIGHTON No.1
Extracted from branch report
Our ordinary meeting was held on Sunday night last, with a fair attendance.
Mr. Gill, our secretary, was nominated for T.U.C., and it was again decided to run Mr. Austen, engine driver for the A.G.M.
15TH MARCH 1907
NEWHAVEN
A smoking concert was held on 2nd inst., at which various presentations were made to Mr. G. Gore, who is retiree from the loco. service. Mr. J. Dobson attended on behalf of the A.S.R.S., and handed Mr. Gore a cheque for £29, the superannuation grant of the society.
(G. Gore New Cross engine driver)
29TH MARCH 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting was held on 22nd.
The question of loco. men passing from one grade to another in promotion, in having to go to Brighton for the purpose without payment, and having to take up their ordinary duties at night, was brought forward, and secretary instructed to write Mr. Marsh upon the subject.
12TH APRIL 1907
We reproduce the following from the Railway New for 16th ult. without comment:-
A letter, of which we subjoin a copy, has been addressed to many of the railway companies during the last few days by Mr. Fox, the secretary of the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen. It will be noticed that Mr. Fox abandons the condition which he now says was not a "condition," but a request that he should accompany all deputations that the companies might receive to discuss the terms of service set out in his former latter. In so doing he is probably wise, although he evidently fails to grasp the fact that, as every company allows its servants the fullest freedom of access to the heads of departments and if need be to the board itself, it is not only not necessary for the society to act as an intermediary, but that by offering itself as such it is interfering with the right the men now enjoy of going direct to headquarters if they have a grievance which they wish to have remedied. Surely if a man desires an interview he can ask for it himself. If he shrinks from doing so, it seems to follow that he has no case which he can successfully put forward on its own merits, but hopes to secure something which he is not entitles to by using, for what they are worth, the name and influence of the society. in such a case he goes to the interview, not as a servant of his company, but as a representative of the society, and in that capacity has no more claim to be heard than Mr. Fox himself, who, if his letter means anything at all, admits that he has no claim.
Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen,
Head office, 8, Park Square, Leeds.
Dear Sir, We obliged for you reply to our letter of the 5th of February last, accompanied by the schedule of the national programme of hours and pay, as drawn up by the locomotive driver, firemen, motormen, and cleaner delegates in Leeds on 8th and 9th January, and to learn that you are prepared to meet the representatives of the men in your employ, although you cannot agree to allow me to accompany them.
This was not a condition but a request, and although the men regret are not able to see me, I am instructed to thank you on their behalf, and to accept for them your offer to meet them.
They have nominated drivers ........ and firemen ........ to meet you, and shall be obliged if you will arrange a date as early as convenient, so that they may have the opportunity of discussing with you the terms submitted.
Yours faithfully,
A. Fox, General Secretary
19TH APRIL 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting was held on the 12th inst., with a good attendance.
A letter from Mr. D. Earl Marsh, locomotive enginemen (L.B.&S.C.), was read, and after some discussion adjourned until next week, when further consideration will be given the subject.
26TH APRIL 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting held on the 3rd inst.
The question of L.B.&S.C.fireman and driver's not receiving their 4s. 9d. and 7s. 6d. rates when due came up for discussion, and secretary was instructed. The question of L.B.&S.C. loco. men attending Brighton for promotion and being booked on duty in London the same day, without any renumeration for going Brighton, was again discussed, and secretary again instructed to write to Mr. D.E. Marsh, loco. superintendent.
10TH MAY 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting was held on the 3rd inst. with crowded attendance.
The question of L.B.&S.C. fireman and drivers not receiving their 4s. 9d. and drivers 7s. 6d. rates when due came up for discussion, and secretary was instructed. The question of L.B.&S.C. loco. men attending Brighton for promotion and being booked on duty in London the same day, without an remuneration for going to Brighton, and again discussed, and secretary again instructed to write to Mr. D. E. Marsh, loco. Superintendent.
17TH MAY 1907
HORSHAM
At a special joint meeting of the Horsham and Three Bridges Branches, held at the Station Hotel, Horsham, 12th inst., in support of the national all grades movement a resolution in support was carried unanimously. There were 130 present.
14TH JUNE 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting held on the 7th inst.
Letter read from Mr. D. Earle Marsh (loco superintendent, L.B.&S.C.) re men sent to Brighton for promotion and stating he had much pleasure in acceding to our request. as to early train, and has given instructions accordingly.
21ST JUNE 1907
A RETRACTION AND A REPENTANCE
We give the following excerpt from the current issue of Railway News without comment:-
In our issue of 16th February we published a letter addressed of the railway companies by the secretary of the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen, formulating certain demands put forward by the society in relation to the wages, hours of duty, etc., of enginemen, and asking that he, as secretary of the society, might be allowed to accompany deputations appointed to discuss such demands with the companies affected. On the 6th April we published a further letter from the secretary of the society withdrawing the request that he might be allowed to accompany the deputations, and intimating that certain drivers and firemen in the service of the companies had been nominated to discuss the questions raised direct with their employers. The matter has now entered upon another phase, as will be seen by the following letter:-
Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen
Head Offices, 8, Park Square, Leeds,
18th May, 1907
Dear Sir, -- As you are fully aware, a movement is on foot with a view to improving the conditions of locomotive and motormen in the in the United Kingdom. A programme has been drawn up by the delegates representing these grades, which has been forwarded to you with a request that you allow me to accompany the men elected, for the purpose of discussing the same with you.
You have very kindly promised to meet the men in your employ, but did not see the necessity of my accompanying them. It was not with any desire to take any undue advantage that the request was made, but simply because it was thought, and is still thought, that I could assist by putting the men's desires in a more concrete form before you, owing to the fact that the men do express themselves more freely that they would do to their employers.
I venture to again submit the request for your earnest consideration, that is, that you allow me as a practical engineman, to come along and discuss with you questions affecting enginemen.
When the request was first made I anticipated that the various engineers of the railway companies would decide to grant me an interview at a joint meeting, and allow me to be accompanied by some two or three drivers and firemen in their employ, thus enabling me to meet the whole of the companies at the same time. We were quite prepared to expect that the companies would defend their position, whilst we were prepared to endeavour to show justice of our requests. There would be no need for loss of prestige, no undue advantage would be taken, and I am perfectly satisfied that both sides would afterwards admit that the interview had not been in vain.
May I ask you, if you will see your way cleat to arrange such an interview at a date most convenient, when we should be pleased to meet your convenience in the matter?
Yours faithfully
A. Fox, General Secretary
Whether Mr. Fox has been led to revive his request for recognition of his society by the expectation, for which there is no warrant, that the rival society, the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants, will eventually be received by the companies we are not, of course, in a position to say; but it would seem that Mr. Fox's society holds no very strong views on the question of recognition, and has no idea of the value of consistency. Nothing is said about the society allying itself with the so called "all grades" movement of the other body -- that being probably the very last thing it intends or desires to do so.
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FRATTON LOCO. DEPARTMENT
On a certain day last month a cleaner - fireman worked from 6 a.m. to 11 a.m. as cleaner, and then from 1.15 p.m. to 12.15 as fireman, making a total day of 18 1/4 hrs., 16 of which were at actual work.
On lodging a complaint he was told he would have to remain that night until 9 p.m., with the remark that he "would either have to be a railwayman or a market gardener."
General dissatisfaction seems to exist there since a certain official was appointed, and a friend suggests that an open meeting would have good results. Perhaps our comrades there will follow this up.
28TH JUNE 1907
BRIGHTON No.1
Extracted from branch report
Meeting was held on Sunday night last, with a good attendance.
A long discussion ensued re firemen moving engines in the absence of the driver.
Report was received from Mr. Dobson, organising secretary, who attended the board of Trade inquiry at Hastings, and some strong comments were made re our locomotive inspector's trotting out unworkable rules founds in the books issued by the company.
26TH JULY 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting was held on the 19th.
The L.B.&S.C. loco. men complained of a signal being erected in a very unsatisfactory position, and which they fear will be a trap for someone to get into trouble. The secretary was instructed to write to Mr. D.E. Marsh, locomotive engineer.
2ND AUGUST 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
Reply from Mr. D.E. Marsh, loco. Superintendent, L.B.&S.C., re misleading and dangerous signal just erected at Clapham Junction north was read, and the secretary instructed again in the matter. A discussion re the duty list in Battersea shed, L.B.&S.C., and the possibility of its being posted earlier took place, and the secretary instructed to write to Mr. Marsh on the matter.
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TUNBRIDGE WELLS
Extracted from branch report
We had a most enthusiastic meeting was held on the 28th ultimatum., with splendid attendance. On new member (loco.).
The secretary was also instructed to write Mr. Bell in connection with supplying s model locomotive for the instruction of young firemen and cleaners, which is very essential in. view of more severe examinations for firemen and drivers.
30TH AUGUST 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting was held on 16th inst.
A letter from Mr. Marsh, locomotive engineer, L.B.&S.C., re duty list at Battersea stating he would have the matter looked into and see what can be done to meet the case. Further letters from Mr. Marsh re a member's unjust punishment, and the misleading signal at Clapham junction North, upon which further instructions were given the secretary.
The scandalous treatment of a member who had been of ill by the locomotive official at Battersea, L.B.&S.C., came in for strong remarks from the members. perhaps lord Cottesloe will consider this case, with a view to some reform, for it is evident that no body of Englishmen will Stans such treatment, not even from a railway company.
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THREE BRIDGES
The ordinary meeting was held on Sunday last, with a fair attendance.
A resolution was passed that a petition be drawn up and signed by all the locomotive staff here and forwarded through the loco. foreman to Mr, Marsh, loco. superintendent, asking for a privilege ticket order book to be kept at this station for the use of the locomotive staff.
6TH SEPTEMBER 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting was held on 30th ult.
Secretary to write to Mr. Marsh, loco. Superintendent, re loco men being suspended from duty for a week and four days, owing to being off ill and having to see the company's doctor before starting.
27TH SEPTEMBER 1907
One of the questions which has been agitating the public mind during the past few days has been the relations between the Associated Society and the A.S.R.S. Mr. Fox has been interviewed, and has made some striking and startling statements. These have led to the statement that the action of the members of the Associated Society in the event of a strike from the crux of the position. That their action would be important no one who has any knowledge of the facts will deny, but that they form the pivot on which success or failure of the movement rests is to misrepresent the whole situation. The Daily Telegraph on Monday fell into a curious error, both as regards the make up of the A.S.R.S. and influence of the Associated Society. It states there are only about a thousand loco. men members of the former and the rest are chiefly plate layers and porters. That is entirely untrue. The bulk of the members of the A.S.R.S. are drivers, firemen, guards, shunters, and signalmen, who are the most important grades affected by the agitation. It has more drivers and firemen than the Associated Society, more signalmen than the Pointsmen's Mutual Aid, and because of its composite character is stronger than all the various smaller societies put together. It does not ignore the smaller societies, and already the General Railway Workers' Union and the London Carmen's Trade Union have signified their support, while the Railway Clerks' Association has declared for neutrality.
What the Associated Society has to gain by the present tactics of its secretary it is difficult to see. The Enginemen and Firemen's Society has a programme of its own, which is largely identical with that of the A.S.R.S. Its principal term is the eight hour day. it has asked for recognition, receded from the demand, and put it forward again. it denies that Mr. bell has any authority to speak for its members. Very Well. Who is to speak for them, and how? Surely it is time this suicidal policy was ended, and the interests of the men on the railways put in the first place while there is yet time. The statement that the programme of the A.S.R.S. would worsen the condition of the men is too ridiculous for argument. It is to be hoped that the E.C. of the Associated Society will show some statesmanship at this juncture, if not, the A.S.R.S. cannot wait for them to move. They cannot escape the trial of their Trade Unionism which the present crisis involves, and, as Mr. Hudson observed at Bury, other matters can be cleared up later.
A. S. R. S.
18TH OCTOBER 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual crowded enthusiastic meeting.
The secretary instructed to write to Mr. Marsh, loco. Superintendent, L.B.&S.C., re the work taken from Battersea, causing wholesale reductions in staff, and no men going with the work.
A. S. R. S.
1ST NOVEMBER 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting was held on 25th ult.
Questions were raised re L.B.&S.C. loco. men, and secretary was instructed to write to Mr. Marsh again.
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NEW CROSS
Monthly meeting held on the 27th ult., with a good attendance.
We were favoured with a visit from our organising secretary (J. Dobson) and our E.C. representative, also members from Maze Hill and Croydon. Mr. Dobson addressed the meeting, and presented Bro. W. Hoadley with a cheque (£30) as the society's disablement grant. Bro. Hoadley thanked Mr. Dobson and the society.
A. S. R. S.
8TH NOVEMBER 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The usual meeting was held on 1st inst.
Suspension pay granted to three loco. men, and secretary to send protest and appeal for the rectification of the injustice.
A. S. R. S.
15TH NOVEMBER 1907
FELL OFF AN ENGINE
WHERE SHOULD A GUARD A RIDE ?
The Westminster Coroner held an inquest on 7th inst. on Charles Ayres, aged 58, a guard in the service of the L.B.&S.C., who was fatally injured at 1.20 a.m. on Tuesday through falling from a stationary engine in Battersea yard, fracturing his skull, and sustaining severe internal injuries. There was no doubt about the facts of the case, and the jury returned a verdict of "Accidental death," but a great deal was said at the inquest as to whether the guard ought to have been on the engine. The train consisted of three horse boxes, with an engine in front and an engine behind. There was no guard's brake. The district locomotive superintendent (Mr. T. Ruthven) expressed the opinion that the guard ought to have ridden in a horse box, and said he objected to men riding on engines. The chief traffic inspector (Mr. W. Harrison) however, did not agree that the guard should have ridden in a horse box, although he would not have called him off the engine if he had seen him on it. The driver, William Bannister, who had a driver for 32 years, said that under such circumstances, he should expect the guard to ride on the engine and not in a horse box, and the fireman said it was not usual for guard to ride in horse boxes. The company's rule on the subject was read as follows:
"A guard must ride in his brake van, and in no other part of the train or upon the engine, except when required to do so in execution of his duty."
Mr. Tibet, solicitor, who appeared on behalf of the driver, asked whether it was proposed to punish the driver for taking Ayres on his engine, but no answer was given, and the Coroner said that did not enter into the question of the cause of death.
A. S. R. S.
20TH DECEMBER 1907
BATTERSEA
Extracted from branch report
The quarterly meeting was held on 13th inst.
A reply from Mr. marsh re unjust punishments was considered very unsatisfactory, and it was decided to appeal to Mr. Forbes, general manager.
A further letter from Mr. Marsh re conditions of employment was discussed, and discussion adjourned.
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TUNBRIDGE WELLS
Half yearly meeting held on the 16th inst., with capital attendance, and we had several cases to deal with, included in which was a brother's reduction of 2s. per week for an alleged neglect f duty. Some very strong comments were made on the wording of the letter our brother received, and the secretary was instructed to take the case up with Mr. Marsh. We also decided to make the 2s. per week up to him. We are pleased to state our brother who was dismissed some time ago has, with another brother alerted to accompany him, had a favourable interview with one of the directors, from which good results are anticipated.
A. S. R. S.
27TH DECEMBER 1907
PORTSMOUTH
Extracted from branch report
Meeting held on the 20th inst., with a good attendance. The branch chairman read letters from G.O. re disablement grant allowed to Bro. J. Caldwell, and in presenting Bro. J. Caldwell with £24 conveyed to him the members heartiest good wishes for his future welfare. Bro. Caldwell, in replying spoke of the many kindness he had received at the hands of the officers and members of the society. Those present wished him long life and happiness, he had to leave early to catch his train home.
Two new member accepted, both L.B.&S.C. drivers
PAINTING BY STAN HIDER
The Pullman Limited approaching Preston Park about 1907 by which time the train had five Pullman cars. The first vehicle was a combined luggage and generator car to provide the electric lighting. Originally Pullman cars were painted dark green, reverting to the classic chocolate and cream in the late 1890s. Heading the train is a Marsh H1 class at the time brand new. 39 was later named "La France" in honour of the visit by the French President in 1913